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辩论实录:“跨洋对话”刘欣智辩福克斯主播!

  • 分类:学习园地
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  • 发布时间:2021-01-25 17:52
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【概要描述】经过一周的“隔空互怼”,我们终于迎来了中国主播刘欣与Fox主播翠西·里根(Trish Regan)的“神仙辩论”。 北京时间30日8点26分,中央广播电视总台中国国际电视台(CGTN)主播刘欣与美国福克斯商业频道(Fox Business Network)主播翠西·里根(Trish Regan)就中美摩擦等相关议题进行一场面对面、直击焦点的“跨洋对话”。

辩论实录:“跨洋对话”刘欣智辩福克斯主播!

【概要描述】经过一周的“隔空互怼”,我们终于迎来了中国主播刘欣与Fox主播翠西·里根(Trish Regan)的“神仙辩论”。



北京时间30日8点26分,中央广播电视总台中国国际电视台(CGTN)主播刘欣与美国福克斯商业频道(Fox Business Network)主播翠西·里根(Trish Regan)就中美摩擦等相关议题进行一场面对面、直击焦点的“跨洋对话”。

  • 分类:学习园地
  • 作者:
  • 来源:
  • 发布时间:2021-01-25 17:52
  • 访问量:
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北京时间30日8点26分,中央广播电视总台中国国际电视台(CGTN)主播刘欣与美国福克斯商业频道(Fox Business Network)主播翠西·里根(Trish Regan)就中美摩擦等相关议题进行一场面对面、直击焦点的“跨洋对话”。经过一周的“隔空互怼”,我们终于迎来了中国主播刘欣与Fox主播翠西·里根(Trish Regan)的“神仙辩论”。

It is the first time that television hosts from China and the U.S. are facing off live. The much-anticipated event has sparked widespread attention from the media across the world.

这是中美主播首次在线展开正面交锋,引发全球媒体的热烈关注,备受期待。

 

 

在开场白中,刘欣表示:“非常感谢翠西,感谢你给我这次机会,从来没有想过能和你进行直接对话。”

 

翠西称自己不代表特朗普政府,而刘欣是中国共产党的代言人。

 

Regan, the host of a Fox Business Network program, said that she is not here to advocate for the Trump administration, and Liu Xin is part of the CPC.

 

刘欣纠正道,我自己还不是共产党员,我今天是以中国国际电视台记者的身份与你进行对话。

 

"I am not a member of the Communist Party of China. I am here to speak for myself, as a journalist working for CGTN," CGTN anchor Liu Xin said.

 

在与Trish Regan的对话中,刘欣谈及了中美贸易、知识产权等话题。

 

谈及中美贸易谈判:中国政府已明确表明立场

翠西就贸易谈判发问,她问刘欣中美之间是否有可能达成协议。刘欣说,如果美方带有诚意,尊重中方谈判代表,相信会有一个好的结果,因为贸易战对中美双方都不利。

 

Trish Regan: What is your current assessment of where the trade talks are. Do you believe a deal is possible?

Liu Xin: The talks were not very successful last time, and both sides are considering where to go next. The Chinese government is very clear.

 

 

谈及知识产权:中国社会对加强知识产权保护是有广泛共识的

当翠西问到所谓中国 “知识产权偷窃”伤害美国公司问题时,刘欣反问道,你可以问下在华投资的美国公司的意愿,问问他们是否愿意在华投资,美国公司在华投资利润丰厚。

 

刘欣接着说,我承认,在中国是有一些侵犯知识产权的案例,但是那都是公司的问题,世界上包括美国在内的很多国家的公司都出现过这样的问题,这些仅是个例,不能说美国公司偷了就是美国偷了,中国公司偷了就是中国偷了。刘欣解释道,中国社会对加强知识产权保护是有广泛共识的。

 

Liu Xin: There is consensus among Chinese people that no country or individual can protect itself without intellectual property protection. Isolated cases do not mean that America is stealing or Chinese people are stealing.

 

 

关于关税:改变规则必须是多边决定

当翠西问到关税的问题时,翠西说,2016年,中国对美国16%的商品征收9.9%的关税过高。

 

刘欣说降低关税是一个很好的想法。这样,美国消费者可以用更便宜的价格买到中国商品,中国也可以用更便宜的价格买到美国商品。但是您刚才也提到了我们现在是规则主导的世界,如果一方想要改变规则,必须要取得相关方的共识。美国不能对中国有区别性对待,降低关税需要是个多边的共同决定。我们目前执行的是20年前的标准,在关税问题上,我们的确需要改变规则。

 

Trish Regan: What do you think of "to heck with tariffs, let's get rid of them altogether." What do you think?

Liu Xin: When we talk about tariffs it's not just between China and the U.S. If you don't like the rules, then let's change the rules, but it has to be done as a multilateral decision.

 

 

关于中国特色市场经济:我们的经济制度是多元开放的

翠西发问刘欣你如何定义“国家资本主义”,刘欣解释道,中国是中国特色市场经济,让市场在经济中发挥主导作用。国有企业在经济中有重要作用,但作用正在不断减少,国家并没有控制经济的一切。

 

来看一组数据:中国80%的就业是由民营企业提供的;中国80%的出口是由民营企业提供的;中国65%的创新是由民营企业完成的;中国一些领先的公司,比如因特网公司、5G公司都是民营企业。我们的经济制度是多元的、活跃的、开放的。

 

Trish Regan: How do you define state capitalism?

 

Liu Xin: We would like to define it as socialism with Chinese characteristics, where market forces are expected to play the dominating or deciding role in the allocation of resources. 

 

We want it to be a market economy but there are some Chinese characteristics, for example, some State-owned enterprises which play an important but smaller role maybe in the economy. 

 

We are a socialist economy with Chinese characteristics, but we are not just State controlled, we are quite mixed, very dynamic and very open as well.

 

 

谈及发展中国家地位:中国人均GDP不及美国人均GDP的六分之一

 

翠西还发问刘欣有关发展中国家地位的问题,刘欣答道,中国经济的总体量很大,但中国有14亿人口,人均GDP不及美国人均GDP的六分之一。但是中国人很努力,中国是联合国维和任务的最大贡献者,也提供了非常多的国际人道主义援助。

 

Liu Xin: If you look at the overall size of the Chinese economy, don't forget we have 1.4 billion people. If you divide the second-largest economy in the world, when it comes down to per capita GDP we are less than one-sixth of the U.S.

 

We can do a lot of big things, and people are looking upon us to do a lot more around the world.

 

北京时间8点43分58秒,跨洋对话结束,刘欣在结束语中欢迎Trish来中国看看。双方的辩论引发广泛关注。从社交平台的网民反馈看,翠西一改昔日的做派,始终没有“发怒”,而刘欣大气严谨、睿智平和,对答如流。

 

直接开始前,Regan先跟观众强调,Xin是党员,并提醒观众Xin有立场,代表党说话。

 

8点26分26秒,开始。

 

Regan:

Xin welcome, it's good to have you here.

刘欣你好,很高兴你能来。

 

Xin:

Unprecedented opportunity to speak to you and to speak to audiences in theordinary houses in the US. I have to get it straight, I am not a member of CPC.This is on the record, please don't assume that I am a member. I don't speak for the CPC and I'm here today I'm only speaking for myself as Liu Xin a journalist working for CGTN. So if anybody wants to quote me, please put my name there at least.

能和你交谈,和美国普通家庭中的观众交谈,这是一个前所未有的机会。我必须澄清,我并不是中国共产党。我把话说明白,请不要假定我是党员。我并不为共产党发言,今天在这里我是作为CGTN的主播代表我自己发言。所以,如果有人想引用我的话,至少请把我的名字放在这里。(刘欣直接表明自己身份,强调自己是个人身份,回击了对方对身份和立场攻击)

 

Regan:

Appreciate it. With your current assessment ofwhere the trade talk is, give your current assessementof where we are on these trade talks. Do you believe a deal is possible?

好的,谢谢你。以你目前对贸易谈判的评估,告诉我们你对贸易谈判进展的判断吧。你相信会达成协议吗?(Regan开始提问,谈贸易摩擦)

 

Xin:

It is true that the satellite connection is not very good, but Ibelieve you are asking me where we are in terms of the trade negotiations. Idon't know. I don't have any insider information. I knew that talks were verysuccessful last time when they were going on in the United States, and now I knowboth sides are considering what to go next. But I think the Chinese governmenthas made its position very clear that the US treated the Chinese government,treated the Chinese negotiation team with respect and show the willingness totalk without using outside pressure. There is high possibility that there couldbe a productive trade deal. Otherwise we might be facing a prolonged period ofproblems for both sides.

卫星信号的确不是很好哈。但是如果你问我,当前我们贸易谈判的进程如何,我并不知道。我并没有任何内部消息。我知道上一次在美国的谈判不是很顺利,现在我知道双方都在考虑接下来怎么办。但是我认为,中国政府已经摆出了明确的立场:只要美国尊重中国政府、中方谈判团队,展现出不施加外部压力来交流的意愿,我们就很有可能达成富有成效的贸易协议。否则,我们双方可能都会面临抗日持久的问题时期。(Xin特别从 ”China” 换成了Chinese Government)

 

Regan:

I would stress that trade wars are never good. They are not good for anyone. So I wanna believe Xin I wanna believe that something can get done. And this is certainly a challenging time. I realize there are a lot of rhetorics out there. But let me term one of the issues. That's IP rights... You fundamentally...I think we can all agree that it's right to take something that's not yours. And in going through some of these cases, cases of the independent WTO that China is a member of as well as the DOJ, the FBI cases, you can actually see some of them are on the screen right now. There is evidence that China has stolen an enormous amount of IP, hundreds of billions of dollars worth. But truly, I think we shouldn't care hundreds of billions of dollars are just 50 cents. How do American businesses operate in China if there are risks of having their ideas or intellectual properties stolen?

我想强调,贸易战绝不是好事儿,对任何人都不好。所以我愿意相信,我愿意相信能做成一些事情。这无疑是一个极具挑战的时代。我意识到形形色色的话术。但是,让我来聊其中一个问题吧。那就是知识产权......你基本上......我想我们都同意,拿不是你的东西是不对的。 在浏览某些此类案件的过程中,中国也是成员之一的WTO、DOJ和FBI的案件,你现在可以真切地在屏幕上看到它们。有证据表明,中国盗窃了大量的IP,价值数万亿美元。但认真的,我认为我们不该把数万亿美元当做50美分。如果有让他们的想法或知识产权遭到盗窃的凤险?

 

Xin:

Well, I think Trish you should ask American businesses whether they want to come to China, whether they find coming to China and cooperating with Chinese businesses has been profitable or not. They will tell you their answers, as far as I understand, many American companies have been established in China very profitable. The great majority of them, I believe, plan to continue to invest in China and explore the Chinese market. Well now US president Donald Trump's tariffs make it a little bit difficult, make the future a little bit uncertain. I don not deny that there are IP infringement or copyright issues or there are piracyor even theft of commercial secrets. I think this is something to be dealt with. I think the Chinese government, the Chinese people and me as an individual, I think there is a consensus because without the protection of IP right nobody, no country, no individualcan be stronger, can develop itself. I think that is a very clear consensus among the Chinese society. And of course there are cases where individuals where companies just go and steal, and that's a common practice probably inevery part of the world. There are companies in the United States who sue each other all the time for infringement on IP rights. You can't say simply because these cases are happening, America is stealing or China is stealing or the Chinese people are stealing. And basically that's the reason why I wrote that rebuttal because I think this kind of blanket statement is really not helpful, really not helpful.

刘欣:翠西,我认为你应该询问美国商人是否愿意到中国投资,取得利润。我认为他们会给出答案。迄今为止据我所知,许多美国公司在中国获利很好,其中大部人愿意继续在美国进行投资。现在,美国总统特朗普的行为使得这些投资行为变得有些困难,使得中美贸易的前景有些不确定。不要否认有侵权。有任何版权问题或存在盗版甚至盗窃商业商业机密。我认为那是,需要处理的事情。而且我认为中国政府和中国人民以及我个人认为这是一个共识,因为如果没有版权保护,没有任何一个国家,没有个人可以变得强大,可以发展自己。所以我认为这是在中国人中非常明确的共识。有些案例显示有个人和公司去偷窃。我认为这可能是世界各地的常见做法。然后,美国的公司一直看到对方因侵犯权利而互相侵犯。你不能简单地说因为这些案件正在发生,美国正在偷窃或中国正在偷窃,所有中国人都在偷窃。基本上这就是我写这个反驳的原因,因为我认为这种空白陈述真的没有用。

 

Regan:

It's not just a statement. It's multiple reports including evident from the WTO. Let me ask you about Huawei. That's in the headlines right now. (Sure.I don't deny those.) As I said, we can all agree, if you do business with someone, it has to be based on trust. and you don' t want anyone stealing your valuable information you spent decades working on. Anyway China passed a law in 2017 requiring tech companies to work with the military and the government. It's not just individual companies right? They might be getting access to these technologies as the government itself, which is an interesting nuance. But I get that China is upset that Huawei has not been welcome to the US market totally. So let me just ask you this, it's an interesting way to think about it. What if we said, you know, sure, Huawei, come on in, but here's the deal you must share all the technological advances that you've been working on. You get to share with us. Would that be ok?

翠西:这个不仅仅是一个观点。这是基于多方面的报道,包括世贸组织的证据。我不否认这些我们已知的事实。我们都同意必须基于信任的基础上和别人做生意。并且你不想让别人偷窃你花费了数十年的有价值的信息。无论如何,中国在2017年要求科技公司为军队和政府工作。所以这不是单单一个公司。这可能是获得这项技术的一个机会。这是一个细微的差别。但我理解美国市场不欢迎中国进入导致中国感到沮丧。我认为我们可以这么想,你有一种方法进入我们的市场,你必须与我们分享你一直在研发的先进的尖端技术。你觉得这样可行吗?

 

Xin:

I think if it is through cooperation, if it is through mutual learning, if you pay for the use of this IP or high technology, absolutely fine. Why not? We all prosper because we learn from each other. I learn English because I had American teachers. I learn English because I had American friends. Still I'm learning journalism because I have American copy editors. I think that is fine as long as it is not illegal. Everybody should do that. That's how we get better right?

刘欣:我认为如果这是基于合作的话,如果这是基于互相学习的话,如果这是基于你付钱使用这些高科技的话,我觉得这绝对可行。为什么不呢?我们互相学习互相进步。我从美国老师、美国朋友那里学习英语;我仍然从美国编辑那里学习新闻。只要合法,我认为这没错。我认为每个人都需要这么做,让自己变得更好。

 

Regan:

But you mention something very important, which is that you should pay for the acquisition of that. You know, look, I think that the liberalized economic worldin which we live and have valued intellectual property and it's governed by aset of laws, and so you need kind of to play by the rules and play by those laws for going to have that kind of trust between each other. ButI think you bring up some good points. Let me turn to China right now, which is now... wow... the second largest economy. At what point will China abandon its developing nation status or stop borrowing from the World Bank.

Trish:我认为我们所生活的世界是经济自由化,重视知识产权的。它是由一系列的法律控制的。所以如果我们想要彼此之间有那种信任,我们都需要遵守规则,遵守法律。但是我想你提出了一些很好的观点。现在让我来谈谈中国。中国现在是世界第二大经济体。中国将在什么时候决定放弃发展中国家的地位?什么时候才能停止向世界银行借款?

 

Xin:

Well I think discussion is going on and I have heard a very live discussion about it. Indeed, there are people talking about China already big, why don't you just grow up? I think we want to grow up, we don't wanna be dwarf and underdeveloped all the time. But it depends on how you define developing country, right? If you look at the overall size of the Chinese economy, yes we are very big. But don't forget we have 1.4 billion people, that is over three times population of the United States. But when it comes down to per capita GDP, weare less than 1 /6 of that of the United States and even less than some other more developed countries. It's a very complicated issue, because as I said it's very small, but overall it's very big. We can do a lot of big things, and people are looking upon us to do a lot more around the world. So I think we are doing that, we're contributing to the United Nations, we're the world's biggest contributor to the UN peace keeping commissions, we're giving out donations and humanitarian aids. Because we know we have to grow up and Trish, thank you for the reminder.

好的,我认为讨论正在进行中,我已经昕到了关于这个话题的非常生动的讨论。事实上,有很多人说中国已经很大了,你们为什么就不能成长起来呢?我认为我们也想要成长,我们也不想一直低人一等、不够发达。但是这要取决于你如何定义发展中国家,对吗?从如果你观察中国经济的整体规模,那么没错,我们体量很大。但不要忘了,我们还有14亿人民,是美国人口的三倍。但是,由人均GDP来看,我们还不到美国的 1/6,跟其他更发达的国家比起来就更少了。这是一个非常复杂的问题,因为我说了中国的人均GDP 很低,但总体经济规模非常大。我们可以做成很多伟大的事情,人民期待我们在世界各地做更多的事情。所以我认为我们正在这要做,我们正在为联合国做贡献,我们是世界上为联合国维和任务贡献最多的国家,所以我认为我们正在这要做,我们正在为联合国做贡献,我们是世界上为联合国维和任务贡献最多的国家,我们积极捐款,参与人道主义援助。因为我们知道我们必须“长大”,也谢谢你的提醒。

 

Regan:

Let's get to the tariffs, I've seen some of your commentaries too, and Xin I appreciated it you think China could lower some of it's tariffs. I watch to see that and I totally agree with you. In 2016, the average tariff charged on the American goods in China was 9.9%, and that was nearly three times what the US was charging, so What do you saya bout this?

翠西:下面我们来谈谈关税问题。我看过你的一些评论,我很感激你认为中国可以降低一些关税。我想说的是,我完全同意你的看法。2016年,中国对美国商品征收的平均关税实际上是9.9%,几乎是美国征收关税的三倍。你怎么看待这个问题?

 

Xin:

I think that would be a wonderful idea, I mean don't you think? I mean for American consumers, products from China will be even cheaper, and for consumers in China, products from US will be so much cheaper too. I think that will be wonderful idea. You talked about rule-based order, this is the thing, if you want to change the rules, it has to be done in mutuaI consensus, basicaIly, if you talk about tariffs, it is not only about China and US, I understand, if you lower tariffs just between China and the Unites States, the Europeans will come, the Japanese will come, the Venezuelans will probably come and say, hey, we want the same tariff. But you can't discriminate between countries, so it's a very complicated settlement to reach. When the world agreed on the tariff reduction China should commit to......was exactly the result of years of difficult negotiations of the United States saw in its interests and decided to what degree they can agree, or to what degree they can lower their tariff, and China agreed to, although in some difficulties, lower our tariff considerably, it is all the decisions of countries according to their own self interests, now things are different.

20 years late,what are we going to do? Maybe these oldrules need to be changed. Let's talk about it,let's do it according to the rules. If you don't Iike the rules, let's change the rules, but again, it must be a multilateral decision.

 我有一个不错的主意。你不认为对于美国消费者来说,来自中国的产品会更便宜吗? 对于在中国的消费者来说,让来自美国的产品也会更便宜,不是更好。我觉得这是个很好的注意。我认为我们应该朝着这个方向努力。

但是你知道你说过要基于规则、基于顺序。如果你想改变规则,就必须在双方达成共识的情况下进行。基本上我们谈论的关税不只是中国和美国之间的关税。那就不仅仅是中国和美国之间的问题。我理解如果你降低中美之间的关税,那欧洲人、日本人、委内瑞拉人都会这样要求。然后说:喂,我们也想要一样的关税。你不能区别对待不同的国家,所以这是一个非常复杂、难以解决的问题。这很难达成共识。当世界一致同意中国应承诺的关税减让……正是多年来美国艰难谈判的结果,美国从中看到了自己的利益,并决定了他们能同意的程度,或者他们能降低多少关税,而中国同意,尽管在一些困难中,大幅度降低我们的关税。各国的决策都是根据自己的利益来决定的,现在情况不同了。20年过去了,我们该怎么办?也许这些旧规则需要改变。让我们谈谈,让我们按照规则来做。如果你不喜欢这些规则,让我们改变一下规则,但是,如果你不喜欢的话,那一定是一个多方面的决定。

 

Regan:

you go back the trade view of 1974 Section 3, I wonder. There was a rule that enable U.S to use tariffs trying to influence behavior of China should have been taken in stealing our intellectual property. And I think in some ways that is part of what come in for human's sense of trust. I hear you on the fourth technology transfer. And I think that some of the American companies perhaps admit it is a mistake in terms of being willing to overlook what they might have to give up in the near term. But this is an issue where the country as a whole needs to step in and we're seeing the United States do that perhaps in a way that hasn't happened. I mean it's been in a background. Don't get me wrong. I think previous administration have Identify the challenges but have really been a little bit unwilling to take on. We're living in this very different times. How do you define state capitalism?  No, fourth technology is part of it....... Hang on one second, Xin, I wanna say that I think your economic analysis is very interesting because you know you've had a capital-assistant but it's state-run. So, talk us about that. How do you define?

我想,你说的是1974年贸易法案的301条款。有这样一条规则让美国运用关税来试图影响中国的行为,在中国盗窃我们的知识产权时本应该运用这样的规则。我认为在某些方面,这是由人类信任感而来。我听到了你关于第四次技术转移的言论。我认为,有的美国公司可能会承认,忽略他们可能要在新的转折中放弃的东西是一个错误。这是一个需要国家整体介入的问题,通过已经发生的事情,我们看到美国就在这样做。我的意思是,这是有大的背景的。一位医生诊断出了挑战,但又不是很愿意接受挑战。我们生活在这样一个不一样的时代里。你如何定义国家资本主义?

 

Xin:

Well,we'd like to define the socialism with Chinese characteristics where market forces are expected toplay the dominating or the deciding role in the allocation of resources. Basically, we wanna to be a market economy but there are some Chinese characteristics. For instance, some state-owned enterprises which are playing an important but increasingly smaller role in the economy and everybody think. Maybe in the economy and everybody thinks that china's economy is state-owned. Everything is state-controlled, everything is state state state. But let me tell you it is not the true picture if you look at the statistics for instance 80% of Chinese employees were employed by private enterprise. 80%, 80% of Chinese exports were done by private companies, were produced by private companies. About 65% of technological innovation were achieved were carried out by private enterprises. thelargest, some of the largest companies that affect ourlife for instance some internet companies  some SGtechnology companies, they are private companies, so we are yes socialist economy with Chinese characteristics but it's you know that not everything state controlled, state-runit's not like that. We are actually quite mixed and dynamic and actually very very open as well.

刘欣:我们要把中国特色社会主义定义为市场决定资源配置的社会主义。基本上你知道,让市场成为我们想要的市场经济,但是有一些中国特色。一些国有企业在经济中发挥着重要作用,但作用可能越来越小。但是你们每个人都认为中国的经济是稳定发展的且一切都是国家控制的。一切都很稳定。但让我告诉你这不是真实的情况!如果你看一下数据,比如80%的中国员工受雇于私营企业。中国80%的出口是由私营企业完成的,而私营企业生产了这些产品。大约65%的技术创新是由私营企业完成的。而且这是一些影响我们生活最大的公司,例如一些互联网公司或者一些5g技术公司,它们是私营公司。所以,我们是有中国特色的社会主义经济,但并不是所有的事情都是国家控制的,国家运行不是这样的。我们实际上是相当混合和多样化的。我们让它充满活力,实际上我们国家也非常非常开放。

 

Regan :

Well I think you need to probably keep being open and that you know as a free trade person as myself. I think that's the direction to pursue. And ultimately that leads to greater economic prosperity for you and better economic prosperity for us. And so let me get a win-win.

翠西:好吧,我想你应该保持开放的心态。我认为,你知道,作为一个自由贸易的人,我认为这是我们要追求的方向。嗯,谢谢你。

 

Xin: 

Absolutely.

 

Regan :

This was interesting. I appreciate you've been here. Thankyou.

 

Xin:

Thank you so much. If you wanna have a discussion in the futurewe can do that. If you wanna come to China...

 

Regan :

I'd love it.

 

Xin:

You are welcome. And I’ll take you around.

 

 

她引用刘欣对专利问题的回答,偷换概念,试图引导让观众认为,刘欣承认了中国参与了知识技术的偷窃。

此后,翠西还邀请了michael pillsbury,点评这次跨洋辩论。

Pillsbury称,他能感受到中美两方的共同目的都是希望能够共赢,达到零关税的共同目标。

 

对于这场辩论网友的评论是:

 

“刘欣完全赢了这场辩论”

“这根本不是一个辩论。翠西一直在问问题。刘欣巧妙的回答后,翠西就问下一个,也没有评论...可笑...是谁在读提词器啊~”

双方主播的实力和背景对比,刘欣拿到过世界英语演讲冠军,美国主播拿到过…选美冠军。

点赞刘欣!刘欣批FOX女主播:中国不会接受不平等协议

 

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