在那些国际著名的名人采访中，素有“世界第一女记者”之称的意大利著名女记者法拉奇对邓小平的专访一直被人津津乐道。

 

 

她是记者，也是作家
 

她是战地记者：她采访过越南战争，印度和巴基斯坦战争，中东战争和南非动乱，两次获得圣文森特新闻奖。
 

她是人物记者：她采访过基辛格、西哈努克、侯赛因、阿拉法特、甘地、布托，当然也包括邓公，采访内容都记录在她的《风云人物采访记》中。
 

20世纪80年代初，邓小平作为中国共产党的核心领导地位呼之欲出。当国内外舆论对中国政治路线的调整有诸多猜测之时，法拉奇的专访把邓小平推向世界潮头，犹如中国共产党向世界发出的新时代宣言。

 

 

为了争取到这次采访机会，法拉奇还曾动用私交，拜托当时即将访华的意大利总统佩尔蒂尼，为其走后门。

 

邓小平并不很清楚法拉奇的情况，也不知道她要提出的具体问题。他只收到一个粗线条的采访提纲，主题是：谈谈中国的改革开放。

 

1980年8月，法拉奇抵京。之前，她已经做了大量准备工作，并专门研究了“文化大革命”那段历史。见到邓小平，她果然抛出了一连串的尖锐问题。没想到邓小平不仅一一解答，最后还因为时间关系，许诺了她第二次采访机会，这也成就了法拉奇三天之内两度采访邓小平的传奇。

 

法拉奇到底问了些什么？邓小平是如何应答的？今天送给大家法拉奇专访邓小平的中英文字精选版。

 

风云对话：法拉奇专访邓小平（精选）
 

Q: Will Chairman Mao's portrait above Tiananmen Gate be kept there?

 

问：天安门上的毛主席像，是否要永远保留下去？

 

A: It will, forever. In the past there were too many portraits of Chairman Mao. They were hung everywhere. That was not proper and it didn't really show respect for Chairman Mao.

 

It's true that he made mistakes in a certain period, but he was after all a principal founder of the Chinese Communist Party and the People's Republic of China.

 

In evaluating his merits and mistakes, we hold that his mistakes were only secondary. What he did for the Chinese people can never be erased. In our hearts we Chinese will always cherish him as a founder of our Party and our state.

 

答：永远要保留下去。过去毛主席像挂得太多，到处都挂，并不是一件严肃的事情，也并不能表明对毛主席的尊重。尽管毛主席过去有段时间也犯了错误，但他终究是中国共产党、中华人民共和国的主要缔造者。拿他的功和过来说，错误毕竟是第二位的。他为中国人民做的事情是不能抹杀的。从我们中国人民的感情来说，我们永远把他作为我们党和国家的缔造者来纪念。

 

Q: We Westerners find a lot of things hard to understand. The Gang of Four are blamed for all the faults. I'm told that when the Chinese talk about the Gang of Four, many of them hold up five fingers.

 

问：对西方人来说，我们有很多问题不理解。中国人民在讲起“四人帮”时，把很多错误都归咎于“四人帮”，说的是“四人帮”，但他们伸出的却是五个手指。

 

A: We must make a clear distinction between the nature of Chairman Mao's mistakes and the crimes of Lin Biao and the Gang of Four. For most of his life, Chairman Mao did very good things. Many times he saved the Party and the state from crises. Without him the Chinese people would, at the very least, have spent much more time groping in the dark. Chairman Mao's greatest contribution was that he applied the principles of Marxism-Leninism to the concrete practice of the Chinese revolution, pointing the way to victory…

 

答：毛主席的错误和林彪、“四人帮”问题的性质是不同的。毛主席一生中大部分时间是做了非常好的事情的，他多次从危机中把党和国家挽救过来。没有毛主席，至少我们中国人民还要在黑暗中摸索更长的时间。毛主席最伟大的功绩是把马列主义的原理同中国革命的实际结合起来，指出了中国夺取革命胜利的道路。

 

…Nevertheless, victory made him less prudent, so that in his later years some unsound features and unsound ideas, chiefly "Left" ones, began to emerge. In quite a number of instances he went counter to his own ideas, counter to the fine and correct propositions he had previously put forward, and counter to the style of work he himself had advocated. At this time he increasingly lost touch with reality. He didn't maintain a good style of work. He did not consistently practise democratic centralism and the mass line, for instance, and he failed to institutionalize them during his lifetime. This was not the fault of Comrade Mao Zedong alone. Other revolutionaries of the older generation, including me, should also be held responsible. Some abnormalities appeared in the political life of our Party and state -- patriarchal ways or styles of work developed, and glorification of the individual was rife; political life in general wasn't too healthy. Eventually these things led to the "Cultural Revolution", which was a mistake.

 

答：……但是，由于胜利，他不够谨慎了，在他晚年有些不健康的因素、不健康的思想逐渐露头，主要是一些“左”的思想。有相当部分违背了他原来的思想，违背了他原来十分好的正确主张，包括他的工作作风。这时，他接触实际少了。他在生前没有把过去良好的作风，比如说民主集中制、群众路线，很好地贯彻下去，没有制定也没有形成良好的制度。这不仅是毛泽东同志本人的缺点，我们这些老一辈的革命家，包括我，也是有责任的。我们党的政治生活、国家的政治生活有些不正常了，家长制或家长作风发展起来了，颂扬个人的东西多了，整个政治生活不那么健康，以至最后导致了“文化大革命”。“文化大革命”是错误的。

 

Q: But we all know that it was Chairman Mao himself who chose Lin Biao1 as his successor, much in the same way as an emperor chooses his heir.

 

问：但我们大家都知道，是毛主席选择了林彪，就像西方的国王选择继承人那样，选择了林彪。

 

A: This is what I've just referred to as an incorrect way of doing things. For a leader to pick his own successor is a feudal practice. It is an illustration of the imperfections in our institutions which I referred to a moment ago.

 

答：这就是我刚才说的不正确的做法。一个领导人，自己选择自己的接班人，是沿用了一种封建主义的做法。刚才我说我们制度不健全，其中也包括这个在内。

 

Q: To what extent will Chairman Mao be involved when you hold your next Party congress?

 

问：你们对“四人帮”进行审判的时候，以及你们开下一届党代会时，在何种程度上会牵涉到毛主席？

 

A: We will make an objective assessment of Chairman Mao's contributions and his mistakes. We will reaffirm that his contributions are primary and his mistakes secondary. We will adopt a realistic approach towards the mistakes he made late in life. We will continue to adhere to Mao Zedong Thought, which represents the correct part of Chairman Mao's life. Not only did Mao Zedong Thoughts lead us to victory in the revolution in the past; it is -- and will continue to be -- a treasured possession of the Chinese Communist Party and of our country. That is why we will forever keep Chairman Mao's portrait on Tiananmen Gate as a symbol of our country, and we will always remember him as a founder of our Party and state. Moreover, we will adhere to Mao Zedong Thought. We will not do to Chairman Mao what Khrushchov did to Stalin.

 

答：我们要对毛主席一生的功过作客观的评价。我们将肯定毛主席的功绩是第一位的，他的错误是第二位的。我们要实事求是地讲毛主席后期的错误。我们还要继续坚持毛泽东思想。毛泽东思想是毛主席一生中正确的部分。毛泽东思想不仅过去引导我们取得革命的胜利，现在和将来还应该是中国党和国家的宝贵财富。所以，我们不但要把毛主席的像永远挂在天安门前，作为我们国家的象征，要把毛主席作为我们党和国家的缔造者来纪念，而且还要坚持毛泽东思想。我们不会像赫鲁晓夫对待斯大林那样对待毛主席。

 

Q: I have heard that Chairman Mao frequently complained that you didn't listen to him enough, and that he didn't like you. Is it true?

 

问：据说，毛主席经常抱怨你不太听他的话，不喜欢你，这是否是真的？

 

A: Yes, Chairman Mao did say I didn't listen to him. But this wasn't directed only at me. It happened to other leaders as well. It reflects some unhealthy ideas in his twilight years, that is, patriarchal ways which are feudal in nature. He did not readily listen to differing opinions. We can't say that all his criticisms were wrong. But neither was he ready to listen to many correct opinions put forward not only by me but by other comrades. Democratic centralism was impaired, and so was collective leadership. Otherwise, it would be hard to explain how the "Cultural Revolution" broke out.

 

答：毛主席说我不听他的话是有过的。但也不是只指我一个人，对其他领导人也有这样的情况。这也反映毛主席后期有些不健康的思想，就是说，有家长制这些封建主义性质的东西。他不容易听进不同的意见。毛主席批评的事不能说都是不对的。但有不少正确的意见，不仅是我的，其他同志的在内，他不大听得进了。民主集中制被破坏了，集体领导被破坏了。否则，就不能理解为什么会爆发“文化大革命”。

 

Q: There was one personage in China who always went unscathed, and that was Premier Zhou Enlai. How do you explain this fact?

 

问：在中国有这么一个人，他在任何时候都没有被碰到过，这就是周恩来总理。这个情况如何解释？

 

A: Premier Zhou was a man who worked hard and uncomplainingly all his life. He worked 12 hours a day, and sometimes 16 hours or more, throughout his life. We got to know each other quite early, that is, when we were in France on a work-study programme during the 1920s. I have always looked upon him as my elder brother. We took the revolutionary road at about the same time. He was much respected by his comrades and all the people. Fortunately he survived during the "Cultural Revolution" when we were knocked down. He was in an extremely difficult position then, and he said and did many things that he would have wished not to. But the people forgave him because, had he not done and said those things, he himself would not have been able to survive and play the neutralizing role he did, which reduced losses. He succeeded in protecting quite a number of people.

 

答：周总理是一生勤勤恳恳、任劳任怨工作的人。他一天的工作时间总超过十二小时，有时在十六小时以上，一生如此。我们认识很早，在法国勤工俭学时就住在一起。对我来说他始终是一个兄长。我们差不多同时期走上了革命的道路。他是同志们和人民很尊敬的人。“文化大革命”时，我们这些人都下去了，幸好保住了他。在“文化大革命”中，他所处的地位十分困难，也说了好多违心的话，做了好些违心的事。但人民原谅他。因为他不做这些事，不说这些话，他自己也保不住，也不能在其中起中和作用，起减少损失的作用。他保护了相当一批人。

 

Q: I don't see how terrible things like the "Cultural Revolution" can be avoided or prevented from recurring.

 

问：我看不出怎样才能避免或防止再发生诸如“文化大革命”这样可怕的事情。

 

A: This issue has to be addressed by tackling the problems in our institutions. Some of those we established in the past were, in fact, tainted by feudalism, as manifested in such things as the personality cult, the patriarchal ways or styles of work, and the life tenure of cadres in leading posts. We are now looking into ways to prevent such things from recurring and are preparing to start with the restructuring of our institutions. Our country has a history of thousands of years of feudalism and is still lacking in socialist democracy and socialist legality. We are now working earnestly to cultivate socialist democracy and socialist legality. Only in this way can we solve the problem.

 

答：这要从制度方面解决问题。我们过去的一些制度，实际上受了封建主义的影响，包括个人迷信、家长制或家长作风，甚至包括干部职务终身制。我们现在正在研究避免重复这种现象，准备从改革制度着手。我们这个国家有几千年封建社会的历史，缺乏社会主义的民主和社会主义的法制。现在我们要认真建立社会主义的民主制度和社会主义法制。只有这样，才能解决问题。

 

Q: It is said that you are giving up the post of Vice-Premier.

 

问：听说你想辞去副总理职务?

 

A: I will not be the only one to resign. All other comrades of the older generation are giving up their concurrent posts. Chairman Hua Guofeng will no longer serve concurrently as Premier of the State Council. …… If we old comrades remain at our posts, newcomers will be inhibited in their work. We face the problem of gradually reducing the average age of leaders at all levels. We have to take the lead.

 

答：不但我辞职，我们老一代的都不兼职了。华国锋主席也不兼国务院总理的职务了……我们这些老同志摆在那里，新来的同志就不能好好工作。我们存在一个领导层需要逐渐年轻化的问题。我们需要带个头。

 

There were previously no relevant rules. In fact, however, there was life tenure in leading posts. This does not facilitate the renewal of leadership or the promotion of younger people. It is an institutional defect which was not evident in the sixties because we were then in the prime of life. This issue involves not just individuals but all the relevant institutions. It has an even greater bearing on our general policy and on whether our four modernizations can be achieved. Therefore, we say it would be better for us old comrades to take an enlightened attitude and set an example in this respect.

 

过去没有规定，但实际上存在领导职务终身制。这不利于领导层更新，不利于年轻人上来，这是我们制度上的缺陷。这个缺陷在六十年代还看不出来，那时我们还年轻。这不是一个人的问题，是整个制度的问题，更多地是关系到我们的方针、四个现代化能否实现的问题。所以我们说，老同志带个头，开明一点好。

 

Q: I have seen other portraits in China. At Tiananmen I've seen portraits of Marx, Engels and Lenin and particularly of Stalin. Do you intend to keep them there?

 

问：我看到中国有其他的画像。在天安门我看到有马、恩、列，特别还有斯大林的画像。这些画像，你们是否还要保留？

 

A: Before the "Cultural Revolution" they were put up only on important holidays. The practice was changed during the "Cultural Revolution", when they were displayed permanently. Now we are going back to the former way.

 

答：要保留。“文化大革命”以前，只在重要的节日才挂出来。“文化大革命”期间才改变了做法，经常挂起。现在我们恢复过去的做法。

 

Q: The four modernizations will bring foreign capital into China, and this will inevitably give rise to private investment. Won't this lead to a miniaturized capitalism?

 

问：四个现代化将使外国资本进入中国，这样不可避免地引起私人投资问题。这是否会在中国形成小资本主义？

 

A: In the final analysis, the general principle for our economic development is still that formulated by Chairman Mao, that is, to rely mainly on our own efforts with external assistance subsidiary. No matter to what degree we open up to the outside world and admit foreign capital, its relative magnitude will be small and it can't affect our system of socialist public ownership of the means of production. Absorbing foreign capital and technology and even allowing foreigners to construct plants in China can only play a complementary role to our effort to develop the productive forces in a socialist society. Of course, this will bring some decadent capitalist influences into China. We are aware of this possibility; it's nothing to be afraid of.

 

答：归根到底，我们的建设方针还是毛主席过去制定的自力更生为主、争取外援为辅的方针。不管怎样开放，不管外资进来多少，它占的份额还是很小的，影响不了我们社会主义的公有制。吸收外国资金、外国技术，甚至包括外国在中国建厂，可以作为我们发展社会主义社会生产力的补充。当然，会带来一些资本主义的腐朽的东西。我们意识到了这个问题，但这不可怕。

 

Q: Does it mean that not all in capitalism is so bad?

 

问：那你是否认为资本主义并不是都是坏的？

 

A: It depends on how you define capitalism. Any capitalism is superior to feudalism. And we cannot say that everything developed in capitalist countries is of a capitalist nature. For instance, technology, science -- even advanced production management is also a sort of science -- will be useful in any society or country. We intend to acquire advanced technology, science and management skills to serve our socialist production. And these things as such have no class character.

 

答：要弄清什么是资本主义。资本主义要比封建主义优越。有些东西并不能说是资本主义的。比如说，技术问题是科学，生产管理是科学，在任何社会，对任何国家都是有用的。我们学习先进的技术、先进的科学、先进的管理来为社会主义服务，而这些东西本身并没有阶级性。

 

Q: I remember that several years ago, when talking about private plots in rural areas, you acknowledged that man needs some personal interest to produce. Doesn't this mean to put in discussion communism itself?

 

问：我记得几年前，你谈到农村自留地时说过，人是需要一些个人利益来从事生产的，这是否意味着共产主义本身也要讨论呢？

 

A: According to Marx, socialism is the first stage of communism and it covers a very long historical period in which we must practise the principle "to each according to his work" and combine the interests of the state, the collective and the individual, for only thus can we arouse people's enthusiasm for labour and develop socialist production. At the higher stage of communism, when the productive forces will be greatly developed and the principle "from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" will be practiced, personal interests will be acknowledged still more and more personal needs will be satisfied.

 

答：按照马克思说的，社会主义是共产主义第一阶段，这是一个很长的历史阶段，必须实行按劳分配，必须把国家、集体和个人利益结合起来，才能调动积极性，才能发展社会主义的生产。共产主义的高级阶段，生产力高度发达，实行各尽所能，按需分配，将更多地承认个人利益、满足个人需要。

 

Q: You mentioned that there are others who made contributions to Mao Zedong Thought. Who were they?

 

奥：你谈到还有其他人对毛泽东思想作出了贡献，这些人是谁？

 

A: Other revolutionaries of the older generation, for example Premier Zhou Enlai, Comrades Liu Shaoqi and Zhu De -- and many others. Many senior cadres are creative and original in their thinking.

 

答：老一辈的革命家。比如说，周恩来总理、刘少奇同志、朱德同志等等，还有其他许多人都作了贡献。很多老干部都有创造，有见解。

 

Q: Why did you leave your own name out?

 

问：你为什么不提自己的名字？

 

A: I am quite insignificant. Of course, I too have done some work. Otherwise, I wouldn't be counted as a revolutionary.

 

答：我算不了什么。当然我总是做了点事情的，革命者还能不做事？

 

Q: How would you assess Jiang Qing? What score would you give her?

 

问：对江青你觉得应该怎么评价，给她打多少分？

 

A：Below zero. A thousand points below zero.

 

答：零分以下，负数千分。

 

Q: How would you assess yourself?

 

问：你对自己怎么评价？

 

A: I would be quite content if I myself could be rated fifty-fifty in merits and demerits. But one thing I can say for myself: I have had a clear conscience all my life. Please mark my words: I have made quite a few mistakes, and I have my own share of responsibility for some of the mistakes made by Comrade Mao Zedong. But it can be said that I made my mistake with good intentions. There is nobody who doesn't make mistakes. We should not lay all past mistakes on Chairman Mao. So we must be very objective in assessing him. His contributions were primary, his mistakes secondary. We will inherit the many good things in Chairman Mao's thinking while at the same time explaining clearly the mistakes he made.

 

答：我自己能够对半开就不错了。但有一点可以讲，我一生问心无愧。你一定要记下我的话，我是犯了不少错误的，包括毛泽东同志犯的有些错误，我也有份，只是可以说，也是好心犯的错误。不犯错误的人没有。不能把过去的错误都算成是毛主席一个人的。所以我们对毛主席的评价要非常客观，第一他是有功的，第二才是过。毛主席的许多好的思想，我们要继承下来，他的错误也要讲清楚。

 

 

 

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